Appendix to VN Account
Fred Allen’s Letter turning over VN oversight to Chau (Feb.
14, 1993)
Ten Examples of Changes the New Overseers Made
Uncle Chau’s Letter (April 6, 2007)
Bill of Sale on house to Hoan Minh & Confirmation
Purchase Document
Uncle Hoa’s Heart Letter (Aug. 26, 2010)
Lyle Shultz Letter about Expelling Uncle Hoa (around Feb. 15, 2012)
Dale Shultz Letter (April 28, 2012)
Two Elders Meeting Request for information
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn’s Story
LINK to Dale Shultz letter April
12, 1999:
http://www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz.php
LINK to VN Photos:
http://www.tellingthetruth.info/plogger/index.php?level=album&id=94
Excerpt of Fred Allen’s February 14, 1993 Letter turning over VN
oversight to Chau:
After discussing the Vietnamese question with Cliff
Toane...We have greatly appreciate all that Hoa and Châu had done
there these 18 years since the workers left there. Cliff has been
very pleased with all he has found...
... So while Cliff can go in and out he will have the general
oversight.
... Châu will be responsible if Cliff not able to be there.
Signed,
C.F.W. Allen
Cliff Toane
Robert Doeke
copies of the above forwarded to:
Eldon Tenniswood
Willis Propp
Paul Sharp
Ray Corbett
LINK:
http://professing.proboards.com/post/558123/thread
Ten Examples of Changes the New Overseers Made
In 2000, the Canadian Workers such as Morris Grovum, Darrel
Turner, including Dale Shultz, began to do some things that were not
guided by the Spirit of God, and the situation became worse and
worse! They changed and changed as they went! The Workers used their
authority to cut, to add, and to teach some things that are not
right. They changed what they wanted and that was the cause of
disagreements with those who weren't willing for their changes.
The Elders prepared a list of ten procedures the Overseers had
changed and wanted them to follow along with their concerns and
questions about them.
1. In the Golden Times, for so long a time we showed the respect in
the Meetings by standing or kneeling when we pray or give testimony.
But they changed to sitting. If sitting like the custom of
Japanese's that would be OK, but some they sit by putting one knee
on the other knee! This is impolite to our custom! It's worsely when
they put one foot on the other knee! VERY impolite. We want to keep
on standing!
2. We often read the Bible and pray together in every early morning
with the whole family. My family has done this since 1961. No one
teach us but the Lord helped us to do this in all the time we went
in this Way. Never change! It's very useful for us! But they
changed! They said family should read and pray separately!
3. In our country, depending on each place, we worship God on Sunday
in the morning at different times, such as 5:30, 6:00, 7:00, 7:30 or
8:00 a.m. We are very satisfied in such cases. We're very happy with
the times we have used for a long time! Go to get manna very early!
Mary went to the tomb very early! We do like to imitate them! But
they changed and all Meetings have to start at 9:00 a.m. now.
4. They shut the pocket and don't help needy with material things.
5. About the Meetings: Held Young People Meetings separate from the
older Friends. No taking food to the Union Meeting for potluck as we
used to do (Very lovely and encouraged Friends working together in
love.)
6. The Bible says "Do not eat blood," but they permit to eat!
7. About the Weddings: Uncle Fred and Mr. Bau composed 5 wedding
songs according to the music of the hymn. They spoke of the love of
husband and wife. We're so happy to use them for the past 50 years.
But in the last three years Darrel forbid us to use the hymns at
weddings. For us, the hymns are only to be used in the Fellowship or
Gospel Meetings, because they spoke of the love of God to the souls
of men. Not for weddings!
8. About the Funerals: During Golden Times, along with the
preaching, praying and singing, we had a time for Friends to give
testimonies. There are often 5 to 10 people to speak about the life
of the passing Friend. How he or she loved the Lord. How she or he
had very good actions and so on. This not only encouraged that
family but also encouraged us. But Darrel cut that out! He said if
we praise the dead, the dead wouldn't get the reward from the Lord!
So funny!
9. In addition, the new Overseers wanted to divide the country into
fields, and were insistent that those lines not be crossed. In the
past, the Workers went wherever they felt the Spirit led them, and
where the need was, typical to how they felt was done in the New
Testament. Under Darrel’s rule, the Friends could not go to other
fields to visit without the permission of the responsible Worker of
that field. We also couldn't invite or ask advice of any Worker not
in our Field. In everything we have to ask permission of the Worker
in the field first. Through them we even have to send the
invitations to others (of course with their witness too). We lose
our freedom. The law in our country give us freedom to invite anyone
we want.
10. The Canadian Workers used their money to portray Workers as big
businessmen with very expensive motorbike, living in an expensive
apartment which attracts many young people to the Friends and make
them want become Workers.
Source: Personal letter to Cherie Kropp from Mr. Nguyen Huu
Bau dated Nov. 14, 2013
Uncle Chau’s Letter About his USA Trip in 2007
April 6, 2007
Greetings Dear ones,
I am so thankful to God for giving this great privilege of being in
Canada and the US for exactly one year. I attended 13 conventions in
both places and I must say that my cup ran over. I just want to say
I am so grateful to God for all the benefits that He has given me
and I want to be more to Him when I return to my country. God has
really used my time here and there to enrich me. I feel so indebted
to God more than ever and I want to pay my vows to Him faithfully
each day that I live...
I want to tell you a bit of my trip. I left California on the 26th
of March for Houston, TX, and there I was met by Kimberly Alford at
the airport and she took me to her home. There I met her husband and
children, and later her parents. Kimberly left VietNam when she was
2 years old with her 3 sisters, the same time with Larry Smit and
his brother...I had met her sister Missy in CA and now I met
Kimberly...It was such a joy to see her having a love for the Truth
and for the Way of God and His people. I was also happy to see her
husband who is a very nice man, who has the same love for God and
His people. Then in a get together we had a potluck dinner together
at their home I was so happy to see her parents and we had a very
good visit...After the dinner I shared something about the work of
God in VN...
The next day Kimberly and her parents drove me to the Space Center
and we had a very good time together...I really enjoyed my time with
them. I appreciate all that they did for me...
The next day we had dinner at the home of Mike Baker with our
workers Ira Hobbs and his companion. I met a Vietnamese friend who
had found the Truth recently there...I had a very nice time with
them all.
The next day Elisa and her brother Pierre Mille drove quite a long
distance to Houston to see me...I have known them and their parents
Dominique and Mireille Mille in VN for the last 9 years. So it was
so good to see them again. After having lunch at Kimberly's house
they drove me to Conroe to see Ken Newman and his family. I was so
happy to see them again and to see their parents who came there to
meet me. We have met them all in VN before, so it was so good to be
in their home and have fellowship with them...
On Saturday March 31st Ken and his son drove me to the airport and I
left for Utah. I arrived at the Salt Lake Airport and was met by
David Bement and he took me to his home. In 1968 David was in VN and
he was stationed right in NhaTrang where Edwin Allen and I were
having our mission, so it was so good to see him again after 39
years...David took me to many places to see our friends and workers.
On Sunday we had a big reunion meeting with the 2 sister workers and
our friends there, and in the afternoon we had a Gospel mtg and
after that a potluck dinner at one friend's home...There were quite
a number of friends including 2 brother workers Titus Lehman and
Martin Wilson in the next field with the sister workers. They asked
me to talk about the work in VN and we had a very good time
together.
On Wednesday April 4th David drove me to the airport and waited for
me until I completed my check in before he left me. It was very kind
of him to do so...I arrived at Boise Airport in Idaho and was met by
Jay Wicks and his companion Mike, Mrs Hong Le thi and Don and Lorna
Williams who drove all the way from Montana to see me! I was so
impressed to see them all there. Mrs. Hong is the one who invited me
to come to Idaho to see her and her husband. They came to the US in
1975 and were introduced to the Christian and Missionary Alliance
Church.
After that Mrs Hong was baptized in that church, but in 1977 or 78
her son got ill and was hospitalized. While they were there an old
professing lady met Mrs Hong and as a result she was introduced to
the Truth...and she made her choice to serve God a few years after
that... Her husband is Chinese and he has started coming to the
Gospel mtgs with her and has the workers to come to their home on
Wednesday morning for a Bible read...
We had a Gospel mtg at the auditorium of a school here last night
and quite a large number of friends came with a few strangers. I was
able to tell them about what God had been able to do in our country
since 1958 when the first 2 workers from Australia and New Zealand
came to preach the Gospel in South of VietNam, and then in 1960 when
Phyllis Munn and Bonnie Dahlin came to help in the work there. The
Gospel has spread to many parts of our country now and has born much
fruit now as we have a few more workers from Canada and the US and
Korea to come to help us...
I was very happy to see David Waldo and his wife in the mtg. He has
asked us to come to see him at their convention ground here. David
Waldo was in VN in 1967 or so...I am very thankful to have this time
free to visit these friends whom I hadn't seen for a long time or
had never seen before. I will visit Portland, OR, next weekend, and
after that I will go to Sacramento and San lose a see a few more
friends before I return to the Orange County on the 17th of April to
see my folk and get ready to attend the 1st Buttonwillow conv. and
then return to VN as soon as the conv. ends on the 6th of May. I
will close here with best wishes to all of you.
Yours in Christ,
Chau
(Vu Ngoc Chau)
Bill of Sale of house from Vũ Trung Hiền to Hoàn and Minh Thanh
Translated to English
From: hien rua [mailto:vuhienrua@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:44 PM
To: hoanthanh
Cc: Ngoc Chau; Samuel Nguyen; thuynga; vuthithuyhien; vuthithuyhien;
vutrunghoa; Nha Doan Van Bo; Vinh Sinh Nguyen
Subject: Re: Cám ,n anh...
Dear Hoàn Thanh,
My wife and I Vũ Trung Hiền would like to confirm with Hoàn & Minh
Thanh and everybody that the house at 19 CX Trần Quang Diệu, F.14,
Q.3, from now on, belongs completely to both of you.
My wife and I thank to brother Vũ Ngọc Châu, Both Hoàn & Thanh, and
brother and sister Thành-Hằng Nga has helped to the transfer of
ownership of this house smoothly, beautifully.
We wish both of you and the children to be always joyful, peaceful,
healthy under the cozy roof of this house which had impressed many
memories of two of us, our children Hiền Ḥa and the workers.
Love to you,
Vũ Trung Hiền & Thúy Nga
In Vietnamese:
From: hien rua [mailto:vuhienrua@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:44 PM
To: hoanthanh
Cc: Ngoc Chau; Samuel Nguyen; thuynga; vuthithuyhien; vuthithuyhien;
vutrunghoa; Nha Doan Van Bo; Vinh Sinh Nguyen
Subject: Re: Cám ,n anh...
Hai em Hoàn Thanh,
Anh chị Vũ Trung Hiên xác nhận với hai em, và mọi người , rằng căn
nhà 19 Cư Xá Trần Quang Diu, F.14, Q.3 này, kể từ hôm nay, hoàn
toàn là của hai em.
Anh chị xin cám ơn Anh Vu Ngọc Châu, hai em Hoàn Thanh, và anh chị
Thành-Hằng Nga đă giúp cho việc chuyển nhượng căn nhà này diễn ra
rất êm đẹp.
Mến chúc hai em và các cháu luôn được vui vẻ, b́nh an, mạnh khỏe
dưới mái ấm căn nhà đă từng ghi nhiều kỷ niệm của anh chị, hai
cháu Hiên-Ḥa và các tôi tớ Chúa.
Thân mến,
Vũ Trung Hiền & Thúy Nga
LINK:
http://professing.proboards.com/post/562345/thread
Posted on TMB on December 16, 2013
Uncle Hoa’s Heart Letter
August 26th,
2010
To every dear brother and sister,
This is Brother Hoa. I am writing to explain about my absence in the
coming days
After a long time of thinking and comparing, I see clearly that the
Lord wants me to be courageous and to ring the bell for a wake up
call. In order for my ringing the bell to get results, I must not
only be well behaved with a definite purpose, but also must
sacrifice and endure loss.
My silence in the coming days does not mean that I am leaving you.
On the contrary, I will be near you. I will steadfastly keep my eyes
on the goal that I chose in the beginning. I want to continue to
offer my life in order to encourage and strengthen your souls and
help others who are in need. I’ll hold fast that goal to the end of
my life.
I have cherished my friendship and fellowship with you during the
many past years. I am writing you of my intentions beforehand, to
prevent a loud meeting from taking place due to my behavior and
actions. I have decided that such a meeting will not be needed. I do
not want any of you to spend money or travel time on my account just
to hear what they will say about me. (With this letter, you already
know my decision.)
Dear Brothers and Sisters, be cheerful about my decision to put off
the noose (cái tṛng) from my neck. From today, I choose to freely
use the rest of my life to serve God according to His good will in
the manner God’s family did in the Golden Times (even if it proves
difficult and means that I lack material goods).
May you all have joy, strength and choose wisdom every day.
Brother Hoa
LINK:
http://professing.proboards.com/post/558953/thread
Posted on TMB on November 25, 2013
About 18 months after Hoa began preaching independently, Lyle Shultz
wrote this letter for the Workers to read to the Friends. Friends
who requested a copy were denied.
Lyle Shultz Letter about Uncle Hoa
2012, around February 15 -
Dear Friends:
On February 15, 2012, Colin, Peter, Cuong and I had a visit with
Uncle Hoa at our residence in Ho Chi Minh City. Over the last
several months, Uncle Hoa has been moving quietly among our friends
and at the same time avoiding any contact with teachers. During the
special season, he avoided being at any center where classes were
being held.
This has raised questions in the minds of several of our friends and
they have been asking us about him. We felt that it was necessary
for us to speak directly with Uncle Hoa so that we can give a
suitable answer to those who enquire about his activities. During
our visit together, we asked Uncle Hoa several times to tell us
clearly what we should tell our friends regarding his relationship
with us. He finally told us that he is not in agreement with
the way that we are working here. We made no headway
in our attempt to visit with him further on that subject and
eventually he terminated our discussion abruptly and left.
After careful consideration of our talk together with Uncle Hoa, we
wish to make the following points clear:
1. Uncle Hoa voluntarily left the work in mid 2010 and has made no
attempt to be reinstated. Therefore, he is not considered a
part of the teacher staff in this country now.
2. Uncle Hoa has put in many years of service prior to 2010 and
it is fitting for us to keep that in mind and respect him
for that. We understand that many have fond memories of his
fellowship, help and support during those years and it will grieve
them, as it grieves us, that he has distanced himself from the
teacher staff now. Anything that can be done to encourage him
to communicate with and cooperate with the teachers in the areas
where he visits will be greatly appreciated.
3. The door is open for Uncle Hoa to contact us at any time. We are
prepared to do all that we can to help him fill a useful place among
us if he desires to do so.
4. Our friends are at liberty to receive Uncle Hoa into their homes
for a visit if they feel comfortable with that. We are not going to
try to monitor or control that. We know that many will not feel
comfortable about him visiting their home as long as he is not in
hearty fellowship with the teachers in this country.
We understand those feelings too, because the teacher staff is a
precious, dedicated group of men and women who deserve our highest
respect. The bond between teachers and students is the result of
a divine work that has taken place in our hearts and we need to
protect that bond from any influence that would bring division among
us.
LINK:
http://professing.proboards.com/post/568123/thread
Posted on TMB on January 17, 2014
Dale Shultz’ Letter with comments inserted by Minh Thanh.
NOTE: “Teachers” are Workers and “Students” are Friends
3355 D Street
Hayward, CA 94541-4565
April 28, 2012
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I have been asked to outline the involvement of Tsutomu Miyata,
Simeon Sarmiento and myself during our visit to your country in
March of 2010. I had been invited by Jim Chafee to Hong Kong, China
and Mongolia for a visit. Because we had Teachers in your country
whom I knew well, I was anxious to also visit there while in the
east. After arrangements were made for me to spend two weeks in your
land, I began to hear about some problems there involving Chau.
(#1) (Uncle Hoa had heard
Darrel reporting to Uncle Dale a month before, and we were informed
a month before the gathering. For me, this was the first lie in
Uncle Dale's letter.)
The Teachers in your country were
anxious
(The Teachers in my country were
going by his or her made up stories to the highest Overseer) that
I would help in resolving these problems. I was only going to be
there for two weeks and I was going with very little background
information concerning the Teachers and Students in your country. I
didn't want to attempt to sort through these problems alone, so I
was in touch with Jim Girton, Ernest Robinson and Tsutomu Miyata
regarding this trip and the issues that were a concern. It was
arranged that Tsutomu and Simeon would be there with me during the
first week of my time in your land.
We visited with the local men Teachers (including Hoa) concerning
Chau. Tsutomu, Simeon and I then visited with Chau. We found Chau
quite open to direction and help and we discussed the problem areas
that had been presented to us. Later, Darrel, Morris and Hoa were
added to the discussion group and a good spirit prevailed in our
visiting together. Chau committed himself to correcting some things
which he had practiced in the past. Because Chau was still in the
midst of getting the family property transferred to new owners and
disposing of the proceeds thereof, we suggested that he take a leave
of absence from being active in the ministry until these business
affairs were all finalized.
(#2) (Second lie. Untrue explanation from one who didn't know
that all the business affairs were finished three months before.
Uncle Chau didn't do any more work until he was back in the work!)
We also anticipated that he could use this
period of time to establish a better relationship with the staff in
general. (Their main
purpose) We were very impressed with
Chau's attitude during our time with him
(Uncle Chau’s attitude was always
the same) and our expectation was that the
relationship between himself and others on the teaching staff would
improve and trust between them would be deepened over the few months
that Chau would be completing these business affairs.
(#3)(How could the relationship be
deepened when the "Overseer" was trying to drive a wedge between the
Friends and Workers?)
I would like to add here that Hoa was very helpful during these
visits. I remember two occasions during our discussions when Hoa
made suggestions which we gladly followed. He had the advantage of
having been a close friend of Chau for many years. We all were
concerned that the very best results could be realized for the
Teachers and Students in your country and for Chau's future as well.
(Of course Uncle Hoa has
always wanted to be a help with God's work, until he saw what was
happening was wrong and not under the Spirit of God's leading.
Especially what Darrel said to his staff in the Workers Meeting.
That’s the reason why he stopped cooperating with them.)
After returning to California, I became aware that our anticipated
"improved relationship" between Chau and other teaching staff
members was not happening. In fact, it seemed like the relationship
was becoming more strained again.
(#4) (With the report from Darrel,
he was very good at making up stories.)
The time came when the business affairs
concerning the family property were all completed
(#5 ) ( I want to shout again "A
lie explanation") but it seemed that there
was very little desire to reinstate Chau to an active role on the
teaching staff. (This is
what they really wanted! Right after the annoucment meeting, a elder
sister, who was teaching Vietnamese to Darrel phoned my husband,
"What a pity for brother Chau that he didn't know that it's hard and
far for him to get back into the work."
This lady was a very good person to spread Darrel’s made up stories.
They had a close relationship, and her daughter is a young worker.)
It also seemed that little effort was being made to try to help
him with whatever was perceived to be the remaining obstacles to
that happening. Because the relationship between Chau and the
teaching staff, as well as the relationship between Chau and a
sizable section of the Students, had not been adequately dealt with;
the possibility of Chau starting immediately in Vietnam was hardly
an option. (#5) (This was
when they started to drive Uncle Chau out of the country.)
I was then in touch with Jim Girton and Ernest Robinson, wondering
if they would favor an attempt to have Chau come to California to
labor with our staff for as long a time period as a visa would
permit. It was thought that it would be very beneficial for Chau to
gain experience working
(#6) (He had experience learning from Jesus through many years) with
a larger staff of Teachers and would give him opportunity to
understand better how Teachers (#7), and being a good worker for
God's work), young and old, work in harmony together; respecting
each others fields of responsibility and collectively covering the
needs of all of the Students.
(#7) Uncle Chau had to respect young Workers even though they
didn't respect him. We read an email from a young sister Worker sent
to his brother said "Whenever you received emails from brother
Chau…Delete it…Don't let his email bother your mind.")
If Chau functioned well in California,
this would in turn build up the confidence of the local Teachers and
Students, so that he could later return with the full support of
all. Jim and Ernest sanctioned this plan. We obtained the services
of a respected immigration attorney here in California and were
surprised when two attempts under this attorney's guidance and
direction resulted in two refusals from American Immigration.
Following this, the decision was made by the overseers closer to
your land that Jim Girton, Keith Olsen and Jiwhan Yu would visit
your country to try to sort out the problem that was there and
hopefully come up with a plan that would work towards a solution. It
was during their visit to your land that my brother, Lyle, was
approached concerning coming to your country to help. Since that
time, Lyle, Lloyd Morgan, Jim Girton, Ernest Robinson, Keith Olsen
(until he passed away) and Jiwhan Yu have included me in much of the
communication concerning events and issues in your country.
My thoughts and heart have very much been following the events there
and hoping for "better days." (#8) The above description pretty much
covers my more direct involvement, including that of Tsutomu Miyata
and Simeon Sarmiento, with the issues which concern both yourselves
and those of us who look on from a distance.
(#8) (when we would all obey him, even in things that are wrong.)
As you know, Chau has again been reinstated to
a teaching role and is helping Lloyd in Cambodia.
We are thankful that he has
this further opportunity. Much remains to be done in order that the
divisions that have developed in your country can be resolved.
(#9) (They must consolidate
their throne first.)
Much also needs to take place in order for most of the Teaching
Staff and many of the Students in your country to have confidence in
Chau again. (#10) Saying
that they will have confidence again in Uncle Chau if he puts his
labor under their rule, instead of under the leading of Jesus in the
Bible.) We are as anxious to see that
happen as you are and we will continue to work patiently with the
staff, Students and Chau to that end. However, this effort
requires your full cooperation. We appeal to all of you to work
closely and cooperatively with Lyle and Lloyd. This is the order
that our great teacher honors and blesses and is the only hope of
unity and joy being restored in fullest measure.
This letter has been compiled with the help and full agreement of
Tsutomu Miyata, Simeon Sarmiento, Ernest Robinson and Jim Girton.
Your friend and brother,
Dale Shultz
LINK:
http://professing.proboards.com/post/565572/thread
Posted on TMB on January 3, 2014
Hoan: End Note: I was surprised when Uncle Lyle warned me not to
send this letter to Friends by email! Now I understand the reason
why they were afraid to send by email: Wherefore whatsoever ye
have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye
have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed
upon the housetops. (Luke 12:3)
Two Elders Meetings - Request for information
No date – Sometime when Darrel was Overseer; passed over to
Lyle.
To the Workers
We, God’s children belonging to churches scattered in the country
of Vietnam, unanimously have the same voice to God’s Workers about
God’s Work in Vietnam.
First of all we want to show our gratitude to God’s Workers for
spending their life to labour for God, especially those who have
left their prosperous countries to come to Vietnam.
Recent years, we have seen and heard some things from brother Darrel
(overseer) and other Workers. We would mention them below. We wish
our Workers to answer us in order that we can understand clearly, we
are very grateful.
Part I – The Things We Want To Ask
1. Studying the Bible every day.
Beforehand we were taught by brothers Châu and Hoa that the first
thing we need to do when getting up every morning is to pray,
meditate. After that, according to individual family, all the family
members gather together at appropriate time (early morning is the
best) and study the Bible.
But now…brother Darrel says “No studying together. Study
individually.”
We want to ask…Is it true?
2. Taking notes in the Meetings.
Some Friends attending Conventions or Special Meetings jot down the
thoughts shared by God’s Workers. Later on they correct the notes
and copy them and give them to any Friends who ask.
But now…brother Darrel says: “No taking notes.”
We want to ask… Is this right?
3. Telling God’s word.
We live in the world and sometimes someone asks us about God.
Previously in our humble place, we tell them about God and at last
we introduce them to meet the Workers.
But now…brother Darrel says: “We live among the people. If
someone asks about God, God’s children are only permitted to tell
them the reason why we follow God. We have to wait for God’s Workers
coming to tell them God’s word.”
We want to ask…Is this true?
4. The Breaking of Bread.
a) We have read in the Old Testament and New Testament that Jesus
established the Breaking of Bread in the evening. Is there any
relation with the fact that God created the world in 6 days in
Genesis. When finishing God said, “…and there was evening and there
was morning, one day…”
We wonder if the evening exists before the morning or not. Please
explain it to us and explain us more why we have to have Meeting in
the morning?
b) Previously every church discusses and chooses the best time to
have gathering.
But now…brother Darrel says “The Fellowship Meeting is at 9
o’clock AM”
Now we want to change the time appropriately according to each
church, is it alright?
5. The Weddings.
a) The Bible says “giving wife and taking husband”. It shows that
the parents manage to organise the wedding, taking husband to their
daughter. As parents, we have the right to invite any guests
accordingly.
But now…brother Darrel says we “should only invite the two
churches and the guests close to the bride and the bridegroom. No
parents’ guests.”
We want to ask…Is this true to the rule ?
b) About the MC (Master of Ceremony) of the wedding,
But now…brother Darrel says that “we should ask a young friend
to be an MC, not old one.”
We want to ask about “the young friend”…From what age to what age is
young ?”
We don’t understand the purpose of this idea. Why???
6. The Funerals.
When one of our Friends passes away, we want to take pictures at the
funeral to send them to relatives (not professing) living in other
countries or remote places who cannot attend the funeral.
But now…brother Darrel says “No taking pictures in the
funeral.” How do we manage?
7. Borrowing money.
Brother Darrel recommends: “when someone loans an amount of money to
other, the loaner considers it as giving it. And someone wants to
borrow an amount of money, he must go to the bank to borrow.”
Brother Darrel wanted to advise God’s people not to loan money to
each other.
But now…in our country, someone wants to borrow money at the
bank, they have to mortgage their house or their field. And some of
them don’t own anything. How can we manage?
8. Helping each other in material things.
In the Bible we have read that some Churches raised money to help
other churches in adversity. In recent years we have never heard the
Workers encourage God’s people to help each other in material
things. On the contrary, some Workers didn’t permit us to help each
other in material things. Among God’s people, there are still some
very difficult families. The Workers don’t want them to borrow
money, to help in material things, they don’t encourage either.
We want the Workers to let us know more how to behave when we
want to help each other in physical, material things?
9. Praying to ask God to drive away demons.
There was a family. A member in the family one day suddenly her
health declined and always talked nonsense. Sometimes she affected
the Meeting. Although she was treated by doctors, her illness was
not healed. With these signs, we thought she was possessed by a
demon. One time we asked brother Châu and the Friends gathered at
that place to pray: “May God have mercy on this woman…” After some
occasions of praying, this one got better, was conscious again and
became normal. We thought God accepted our prayers. After that she
decided to follow Jesus and she has been faithful so far. Since then
her parents and relatives saw the power of God and wanted to follow
Jesus, too.
We want to ask the Workers about this prayer…“May God have mercy
on this woman and drive the demons away from her.” Is there any
thing wrong with it?
But now…brother Darrel says: “It’s not right.”
10. Inviting a person to analyze a scientific fact in a gathering.
Brother Trung is a godly friend. We honored his faith– his word –his
deed. He has helped all of us. His profession is a medical doctor,
dedicated to studying sciences. On an occasion, there was a
gathering with all Workers and elders, brother Darrel asked doctor
Trung to have a speech on analyzing a scientific phenomena purely
without mentioning the faith!
We want to know… in a gathering of people with faith, what
purpose it serves to invite a person to talk about science. We don’t
understand.
11. The so-called Elder.
In the Protestant, they use these words Teacher, Pastor, Bishop,
Elder, Deacon, Saint, Believer….to name the position in their
religion. But we use: Way of God instead of Protestant. God’s
children instead of Believer, Saint.
The person who is in charge at a church, and leading a Meeting is
called Elder. It is the same word in the Protestant Way.
We want to know…Do we need to have another name to replace?
12. A model form to declare to the Authorities.
When we have a gathering, the authorities can knock at the door at
any time and question us about that gathering.
We need to have some entries that are unified throughout the
country to fill the form. For example:
- Who is the head?
- The name of religion?
- Method of working?
13. The Person Substitute.
Previously, every God’s child is prepared to answer the authorities
that brother Hoa and brother Châu are in charge. Their address is at
19 cx Trần Quang Diệu- Ward 14 -Distr 3 -Saigon. But now they are
not in the work, they don’t have a stable address as usual.
We want to know…Which Workers are now substitutes for the two
brothers who are no longer in the work anymore. Who is in legal
charge with the Authorities, their address, their lodging in order
that all the Friends can answer the same to the Authorities at any
time they ask.
14. Why two words?
Once the Authorities asked every citizen to declare their religion.
The Workers asked Hải Trân to send message to God’s people stating
that: “We follow God, gather at home.” If they don’t accept we can
declare that we are Protestants.
We want to know… why there are two answers.
15. The Promise.
In the last page of our hymn book: “after 2 years there will be a
new version.”
But now…Five years has passed and the Workers don’t have a
word about this.
16. Composing Hymns.
Besides the hymn book using in the Meeting, we have other hymns from
USA, Canada, India, Korea. The Workers and God’s people in other
countries can compose hymns, so can Workers and God’ people in
Vietnam compose hymn? Especially in Vietnam, there are 5 hymns
dedicated to the wedding being used for many years previously. (One
hymn from Uncle Fred and translated by brother Châu, the rest are
composed by brother Bau in lyric part.)
We want to ask…In our family’s wedding, if we want to sing one
of these songs, is it alright to sing as we did in the previous
years?
17. Baptism.
In the past, in order to prepare for an occasion of baptism, the
Workers usually speak clearly about the meaning and purpose of
baptism especially for those who were ready for baptism. After that
those who were ready, they would stand up to manifest their
willingness and the Workers baptize them without differentiating
young or old, how long in God’s way.
But now… The Workers say those who will be baptized must reach
14 years old and have follow God for a length of time.
We want to know…Is that stipulation right?
Part II. The Things We Have Seen
We are sheep which always watch and follow the examples of the
shepherds.
“the shepherd goes ahead and the sheep just follow him.”
Following are those that we have seen:
1. There are very poor families among God’s people. Yet, some
Workers use expensive motorbikes.
2. Some Workers gave unclear information and caused our Friends to
suspect one another, dividing into factions in the church. Example:
saying that brother Mike couldn’t renew his visa because there had
been someone who secretly reported him to the police! But we haven’t
heard exactly who did it.
3. When God’s people encounter spiritual problems, the Workers of
the field didn’t ask them directly the cause to help them. They only
decided: “He or She is forbidden to pray and to share in the
Meetings. And he or she should go to Gospel Meetings to start his or
her work of faith again.” Some of them were really hurt and since
then they left God’s House!
4. There is an old professing lady, living far from the place of
Meetings. In previous years she tried to go to the Meetings although
she was ill. But now her health declines, she cannot go to the
Meetings. She said: “More than 4 years I have lived here, and no
worker has come here to visit me, except brother Châu, who from time
to time sends me a text message to encourage me. That lady is sister
Nga, now she moves to Long Khánh town-Đồng Nai Province.
5. Formerly, whenever one of God’s people passed away, the Workers
spared about 20-30 minutes for God’s people who are standing around
the coffin to say a few words about the life of our deceased friend
to comfort and encourage one another. We find this in Acts 9:36-39.
In recent funerals, we haven’t seen this anymore!
6. We long that the Workers of the field, coming to the house of
God’s people, they should bring the Gospel and peace. Please don’t
bring bad stories about others to tell us, even a little one. And
also, please don’t ask questions that make us confused, doubtful and
puzzled.
7. In order not to make God’s people fear and worry or make them
tell lies to the authorities, we propose that foreign Workers should
stay at the hotel at night and limit their walking outside at
daytime, especially in rural areas.
8. In order to have a godly atmosphere in the Meetings, we suggest
that all should stand up when praying or sharing.
9. There is a Meeting for young people yearly. We don’t find any
Meeting for middle-aged or the old ones!
Why is there a difference made between the old and the young?
10. Finally, we hope that the Workers will be an example to us and
teach us to obey God’s Word as in the Bible and please don’t
interfere in the private affairs of our family.
Part III - Supplication
Hearing and seeing good things we cannot mention all, we only
mention a few things we have seen and heard that we don’t understand
clearly. So we wish the Workers will answer clearly to each one of
God’s people which is right and which is wrong? And we need the
Workers to tell us again what things are true? We are very grateful.
Love in Jesus Christ,
Some of God’s people in Vietnam
(More than a dozen Elders and old Friends, some still in their
Fellowship).
LINK:
http://professing.proboards.com/post/561801/thread
Posted on TMB on December 13, 2013
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn posted the
following on TMB on January 31, 2014:
My name Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn.
I'm Minh Thanh's husband. I'm used to be a Catholic. My big family
and all my relatives are in Catholic. I'm in the way alone. I am
happy to have my wife and two children accompanying me on this way.
I tell you a little about why I followed on this way. I was born and
raised in Catholic. I was very zealous with my belief. Since my
childhood, I studied and lived in a school belonging to catholic
with many priests as teachers. Some teachers were French. My mother
loved me and taught me to say prayers. My mother and the seven
brothers and sisters went to church every day.
In my heart I wanted to know more about God, but going to the church
attending the services and listening to the preaching of the
priests, I didn't understand much the Bible.
In 1973 I was studying at the University of Dalat. One day the class
was over and I came home. When I passed through the exit gate, I saw
two ladies, one American the other Vietnamese. They were
distributing the inviting cards. I received one. I read on it. They
invited to the gospel meeting at a rented room in a private school
in Dalat.
I didn't go to any preaching places of some denominations because
the priests said to me that it was not good to go there. But in the
inviting card, besides the gospel meeting, there was a Bible class
in English. So I chose to go to this Bible class with intention to
learn English, not listening to gospel meeting according to the
advice of the priest.
At the first time of Bible class, I was impressed of an American
speaking Vietnamese extremely beautifully, fluently. We began with
book Luke. The servant (at that time she only introduced herself as
servant of God, I didn't hear the word worker) asked each student to
read one phrase, then she explained fully the meaning of that
sentence. We rotated to read from this chapter to another, and after
a few months I felt very interested because I understood any part of
Bible I had learnt.
I uttered that I had seen Jesus as if Our Lord was present somewhere
and I had courage to have another step--going to the gospel meeting.
She preached in Vietnamese clearly, concisely, full of meaning with
Hanoi accent (the most standard Vietnamese accent). If we hadn't
seen her, only listened to her voice I am sure we would have
confused her with a 100 per cent Vietnamese. Her name was Bonnie
Dahlin. And after some months, Auntie Phyllis Munn was added to
them. Auntie Phyllis spoke Vietnamese the same as Auntie Bonnie, she
was gentler. You can imagine how excited I was. I professed at that
time and a few months later the liberation day came. All the
foreigner servants left the country. I was only believer in Dalat,
it is far from the main city of Saigon 300 km.
Before Auntie Bonnie left, she wrote me a letter to the effect that
"Don't be afraid of death but afraid that whether we will still keep
our faith to the end"
On the liberation day, all foreigner servants left Vietnam. I was a
newbie believer then. I was thankful to two brother local servants
and three sister local ones sometimes visiting me. Some friends in
Saigon took notes in the gospel meetings (the new government
continued permitting the gospel meeting lasting some years later)
and sent through post office to me. Every year I went to Saigon to
attend convention on three first days of new lunar year.
On this occasion, I encountered Minh Thanh and made family with her.
She left Saigon and moved 300 km to Dalat. Although we didn't have
any servants of God as often, our Sunday morning meetings happened
between both of us and a few friends later.
In 2002 we moved back to Saigon, after more than 20 years together
in Dalat. My wife had an optimistic view to say that we returned
Saigon after a honey moon trip of more than 20 years.
Through the posts of my wife, you can know the rest of my story.
I always thank God for keeping our faith, our little family until
today and heading towards future I would ask God to continue keeping
our faith and our little family to the end.
I cherish the word from Edgar Massey: "The only thing necessary is
the genuine and beautiful spirit of Christ."
Nowadays, I can't ride motorbike because 3 years ago I had a stroke.
My wife instructs me to use the bus. One time, at the central bus
station, I got on a bus. I didn't know whether the bus pass by the
place A where I wanted to reach. I asked the people surrounding.
There was one man eager to tell me "the bus not passing by the place
A" and he enthusiastically guided me what bus number to take. I was
very grateful to him. And I related to spiritual things.
I used to be on the bus of Catholic, and someone told me that the
bus I was on could not take me to the destination. Now I was on the
bus of Two by Two. Once more I didn't see the signs that led me to
Heaven, and I thank to Cherie Kropp with the website Telling The
Truth which discloses many truth, saying to me loudly that the bus
Two by Two doesn't take me to Kingdom of God. I can confirm this
alert through the Canadian workers and overseers behaviour. I didn't
see the Spirit of God in them. That's why I value the utterance of
Edgar Massey: "The only thing necessary is the genuine and
beautiful spirit of Christ"
May brothers and sisters everywhere pray to
God for us to have the beautiful Spirit of God, and wisdom for us to
choose a true bus to the Kingdom of God. By the way, I am typing
this on the first day of new lunar year. I would like to wish all of
you a new year full of health and grace from our Lord.
LINK:
http://professing.proboards.com/post/570620/thread
Posted on TMB on January 31, 2014
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn
posted the following on TMB on February 15, 2014:
This morning, I talked to my wife that I had been lucky because
I had met a staff of workers that only concern to sow a seed of
Christ in my heart until Christ became greater in my heart and they
became smaller. I saw clearly the same as John Baptist said: ‘He
must increase, but I must decrease’ John 3:30. They helped me day
by day to depend more and more on the Bible and depend less and less
on them.
Uncle Fred's staff comprised of Auntie Bonnie Dahlin, Auntie Phyllis
Munn, Uncle Edwin, Uncle Cecil, Uncle Christie, Uncle Châu, Uncle
Hoa, Sister Thư Anh, Sister Băng Ngọc. I am very very grateful to
them. I didn't have a lot of time with them due to the Liberation
Day came very soon to me. But I continued being fed by Uncle Hoa,
Uncle Châu, Sister Thư Anh, Ssister Băng Ngọc.
In my opinion, maybe not true, Uncle Fred's staff was a particular
one, hard for me to encounter a such similar staff nowaday. Now the
workers(in my country) demand the friends "because the teacher
staff is a precious, dedicated group of men and women who deserve
our highest respect"
(quote from Lyle Shultz's
letter). I feel he wanted "the worker increase, Christ decrease."
Many things have happened which made me worry: ‘Where is the true
way of God?’ At first, we thought the Vietnam problem was the only
one in the world but gradually we learned of the problem in Alberta,
Canada. We felt being comforted and day by day as we realise that
this is a global issue, and we know the history of 2x2 cult and many
other things.
We thank God for opening our eyes such as the Samaritan woman asked
Jesus: ‘Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim
that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.’
Jesus answered: ‘Believe me, a time is coming when you will worship
the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans
worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for
salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is
coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the
Father in the Spirit and in truth,
for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is
spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.’
(John 4:20-24)
So I have had the answer, we worship the Father neither in Catholic
way nor in Two by Two church. We worship the Father in the Spirit
and in truth.
Once more, we have a lot thanks to Edgar Massey to have contact with
us. And he has kept carefully the Account of Alberta and now he has
done the same for the Vietnam account, very easy to follow and
understand.
We have a lot thanks to Cherie Kropp for her Telling The Truth
Website and the Vietnam Account. I think she has done her best to be
true, exact, clearly. Her work will be rewarded by our God. Her
effort brings many souls closer to God, not to any human
organisation.
We have a lot thanks to my wife's friend in States for introducing
us to website Truth Meeting Board.
We have a lot thanks to Administrator of Website Truth Meeting
Boards for giving us opportunity to encounter many precious friends
on the board, through their experiences, their thoughts, their
choices partly take part in our choices. We don't feel lonely any
more. We have more peace, more calm and the most important we help
each other to see and have more Spirit of Christ.
We have a lot of thanks to our friends on this Board. I think we
only begin our new chapter, we will continue to share our experience
on our life's way in order in the end we can meet our Father and our
Lord in joy.
LINK:
http://professing.proboards.com/post/573455/thread
Posted on TMB on February 15, 2014
The document signed by the officer of the government
confirming that we finished all the selling/buying between us for
the house.
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